Ask a Christian

[Palagrin]

You're right, but it is a good thing xD

Anyway, let's get this on track again, please...

[Michael]

Owe Rhys for this, but I think some of his ideas come from here; you should all watch this, it's, welll



[9 parts]

[Palagrin]

Just for those who want to know, Prayers for Bobby is a film about a Christian family whose son is gay and commits suicide because he can't take it any longer. If you want to see one of many Christian perspectives on homosexuality, watch the above.

[Techie]

Sept 5, 2011 5:59:02 GMT Palagrin said:

Just for those who want to know, Prayers for Bobby is a film about a Christian family whose son is gay and commits suicide because he can't take it any longer. If you want to see one of many Christian perspectives on homosexuality, watch the above.

Video is no longer available due to copyright, but no biggie.

[Palagrin]

Try this:

[Techie]

I see the logic behind the video and it brings it across quite well.

My opinion.

I've researched about a bit upon the topics such as homosexuality, masturbation and others that I feel are always asked by non-Christians and Christians like myself that question them to ask if they really right. I feel that it's something that you have to answer yourself and let the scriptures guide you to what you believe is the truth, also what you believe is right.

There is never going to be two Christians that believe the same thing or have the same opinion on the same verse. It's the way people interpret the bible and how it comes across to them in the way they feel led. I myself believe that gays and lesbians shouldn't be allowed according to the scripture, but I also believe that we have free will which God has allowed us to have to think for ourselves.

If it's within the scriptures then I believe that gays/lesbians should be punished for their sin and that God will deal with them in due time, however, if it's without side of the scriptures I believe that they are human beings just like everyone else and have the right to feel and love in the way they are happy with. But what you have to remember is that sin came in to the world due to Eve, it wasn't actually created and we would have been born in a sin free world.

I have strong views and opinions of both sides within and without the scriptures when it comes to topics such as homosexuality, masturbation, sex before marriage etc, but I feel that religion and Jesus are two different things as well again (won't go into it due to confusion for some people). I feel that some of the bible doesn't apply to us in this modern day as it was for the Israelites if I'm correct.

But like I say it is a difficult subject and one that can go into depth just like the rest of things such as, masturbation, sex before marriage, tattoos, smoking. But I don't have the answers I just follow what I believe is right and wrong which I think is all we can do, as God's standards are so high.

I hope this helps and I'm happy to talk about it if anyone as any questions.

Regards,
Techie

[Palagrin]

I myself believe that gays and lesbians shouldn't be allowed according to the scripture

I understand your intention, but I wouldn't put it in that way

If it's within the scriptures then I believe that gays/lesbians should be punished for their sin and that God will deal with them in due time, however, if it's without side of the scriptures I believe that they are human beings just like everyone else and have the right to feel and love in the way they are happy with. But what you have to remember is that sin came in to the world due to Eve, it wasn't actually created and we would have been born in a sin free world.

So what is your opinion? Is it or is it not in scripture?

EDIT: Also, this is interesting:

[Wanderer]

Feb 23, 2013 23:28:49 GMT Techie said:

But what you have to remember is that sin came in to the world due to Eve, it wasn't actually created and we would have been born in a sin free world.

Yeah, I've always struggled with this. Because it isn't correct to say that Eve is to blame for "bringing" sin into the world. Adam fell just as quickly to sin as Eve did, so the capacity to sin was already always inherent in humans. Sin was an inevitable thing and thus had to have been created.

[Palagrin]

I think most Christians will agree that sin is a byproduct of having free will.

[Wanderer]

Thus... sin is inherent. I mean, we can't really blame anyone for bringing sin into the world when that easy ability to sin was with us the whole time.

[Palagrin]

Agreed.

What do you guys think about "the devil"? Symbolic, personification of temptation or an actual entity (whether metaphysical or not)?

The reason I ask is because I am deeply uncomfortable when people try talk about being tempted by "the evil one", as if there is in fact some nasty demon hanging on their every thought and trying to convert them to sin. As far as I know, that line of thought has very little Biblical validation.

[pixie]

Religion in any form is such a complex and complicated topic. Sometimes I find it really interesting to debate and other times I just find it exhausting. To me, I just really don't want anyone to try to tell me what to believe and I try very hard not to force my opinions on anyone else (though I do think discussion and debate is good). It's so personal.

I've grown up in a Christian household, but a very liberal and open one. My mom has always told me that she would never be disappointed in any beliefs that I wanted to explore and that the only thing that would disappoint her is if I just stopped thinking about spirituality in general because she thinks that reflecting on meaning and morality is important for emotional health. So basically, I've never been told what to think, just that I should always think and always question. I really appreciate that because I've never felt pressured into anything.

Personally, when I read the scripture that people use to claim that homosexuality is a sin, I don't get that from it at all. If you read the scripture in the context of the time, that doesn't seem to be what it's saying. Just after doing some research into the language of the time and translations and such, that's simply not what I feel it's trying to communicate.

[Wanderer]

Palagrin: You know, that's actually a really good question. I just see him as a personification of temptation, even in context to the book of Revelations where Satan is imprisoned. But since Satan was formerly Lucifer, an angel, that also seems to imply that Satan does exist on a metaphysical level if we assume angels to exist as well... that's an interesting question. I'll ask my dad what he thinks since he's pretty well-versed in Christian theology

pixie: I know what you mean. You bring up an interesting point, and that reminds me of this post I came across this on a forum a couple years back:

SPOILER: Click to show

some people will lead you to believe that the bible and, hence, christianity, are opposed to homosexuality.

this is false.

i'm going to use a number of references in Hebrew and Greek (Koine) language, given that the bible was interpreted to english from greek and, of course, hebrew. I will be referencing the 'New International' version of the Bible for english texts.

the greek term used during the days of the bible to represent two men in sexual relations (homosexuals) was "erastes-eromenos", which translates to 'man-boy'. this was commonly found in sexual literature. at the time in pagan cultures, another word was used frequently, which was "arsenokoitai". these were male pimps and prostitutes who were generally found in pagan temples.

in the bible, there is no mention of erastes-eromenos. there are two mentions of arsenokoitai, located in Corinthians 6:9 and in 1 Timothy 1:10.

"A Man Shall Not Lay with Another Man"

quite possible the most commonly known reference to homosexuality being referred to as a 'sin' is in Leviticus 20:13, where the english version states:

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

interestingly, the Greek (and therefore much more accurate) passage states:

"Kai hos an koimEthE meta arsenos koitEn
gunaikos, bdelugma epoiEsan amphoteroi;
thanatousthwsan, enoichoi eisin."

the term "gunaikos" means 'wife'. the above statement says that a married man may not lay in the 'marriage bed' of his wife with another man. it refers to male x male adultery. not homosexuality.

(edit) since the purely hebrew form seems preferred:

w'iysh ásher yiQach et-iSHäh w'et-iMäH ziMäh hiw Bäësh yis'r'fû otô w'et'hen w'lo-tih'yeh ziMäh B'tôkh'khem

more literally:
"and man who lies with man bed woman disgusting (form; idolatry, feminine) do twice die die (as in both die together) bloodshed with." or in basic english, "and a man who lies with a man in the bed of a woman is disgusting" etc.

so we have two possible translations here. either it's 2 men in the bed of a woman, meaning an orgy, or it's 2 men in the marriage-bed, meaning one of these guys is married to said woman.
(end edit)

perhaps even more famous is Liviticus 18:22, which says in the english version:

"Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."

yet the hebrew text says:

"We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah."

or, "and with a male, not lie down in the beds of women."

this refers to an orgy. that a person shall not (with another male) have sex with women.

"...wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God ... nor men who have sex with men"

Corintheans 6:9 states in english that, "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men."

yet this entry, in greek, clearly uses the term "arsenokoitai" where the above is underlined. a term, which noted earlier, refers to male prostitutes and pimps. generally of pagan temples. the proper term to refer to homosexual men, "erastes-eromenos" is never used. ever, in the entire bible.

you may find it interesting that the King James version, created in 1611, is vastly different than the New International version, which was made in 1984.

King James version states: "abusers of themselves with mankind".

quite the difference if you ask me.

Sodomites Were Gay

no, not really. they did partake in orgies and other sins, however, such as greed, gluttony, torture for pleasure, and pagan rituals.

To Conclude

misinterpretation of the bible is severely problematic. it has lead to heinous deeds by people throughout history. while i will say that there are parts of the bible which are hardly to modern social standard (such as stoning to death women who aren't virgins or not mixing fabric) one thing we can most assuredly conclude, is that in no place, at any point, does the bible condemn two people of the same sex who are in love and responsible about it.

for further reading, i suggest the story of Johnathan and David. it is one of the most notorious love stories in the bible, with the two being joined in the holy spirit.

did i mention they were both men?

[Palagrin]

Palagrin: You know, that's actually a really good question. I just see him as a personification of temptation, even in context to the book of Revelations where Satan is imprisoned. But since Satan was formerly Lucifer, an angel, that also seems to imply that Satan does exist on a metaphysical level if we assume angels to exist as well... that's an interesting question. I'll ask my dad what he thinks since he's pretty well-versed in Christian theology

That whole thing about him being Lucifer is actually not in the Bible, it's from the Apocrypha (to my knowledge at least).

Also: Angels are pretty whacky, too.